King ghidorah vs ghidorah

Minecraft Dino Kaiju

I partially agree, but I also think that it's a good thing. It's going more of a realistic route than the other series, more like how the Showa era was at first.

Monsterverse Ghidorah wins by a LARGE margin. He has size, strength, speed, regeneration, and extremely powerful Gravity Beam lightning.

He has a decent grasp on fighting technique, even if he isn't quite as skilled at brute-force melee combat as Godzilla. He knows how to coil, can absorb electrical energy mid-combat, and can take an extended Atomic Breath attack that only falls behind Final Wars Godzilla in sheer kinetic force without any damage whatsoever.

Without proper mass and power output, Showa Ghidorah would just fall behind. Whether it be getting blasted, drained, coiled, or slammed, he WILL lose. He simply has no way to counter the stronger Monsterverse Ghidorah, the only Titan able to go blow for blow with one of the most powerful live-action Godzillas ever seen.

TheGMan123

Well, I definitely wouldn't say that he's one of the most powerful Godzillas ever. Shin Godzilla has much stronger atomic breath while Monsterverse Godzilla is a better melee fighter, as far as anyone knows. No one's actually seen Shin Godzilla fight hand to hand with anything else, so who really knows about that? I think Heisei's atomic breath, at least when he gets spiral or becomes Burning is stronger than Monsterverse Godzilla's atomic breath, at least from a range standpoint. Especially in GMK, Gmk's atomic breath easily beat Ghidorah and Mothra. 

If Ghidorah was such a good fighter, he would have used his flying capabilities to his advantage. He's a good melee fighter, but not so great at ranged, or else he really would have at least tried to fly and attack Godzilla. Or he's stupid. Either way, that gives Show a significant advantage when it comes to aerial combat, which is where they'll be fighting. So yes, Showa would lose in a melee battle, but Showa would win in a ranged battle and he seems to be more intelligent than Monsterverse Ghidorah. Also, he destroyed all remains of an advanced civilization and made Venus into a desolate, lava filled wasteland. I don't think Monsterverse Ghidorah's gravity beams could ever do that, no matter how long he tries. Showa, with tactics, would probably win, in my opinion. 

Monsterverse Godzilla has the second strongest standard Atomic Breath in the franchise. It can put out over 10 kilotons of force per second in that small contact zone, as outlined in his super-species profile. The kind of force needed to lift Ghidorah (who weights over 140,000 tons) off his feet and keep pushing him back despite his active resistance is absolutely insane. The physics of it all makes this clear.

That rules out range, since Monsterverse Ghidorah can simply take all that damage no problem, and that's assuming he doesn't eat it up since he can absorb energy through his bites.

In terms of flight, Monsterverse Ghidorah is no stranger to that. He easily immobilized and took down Rodan in the air, pulling apart his wings to ensure he couldn't move. Monsterverse Ghidorah was both smart enough to perform this tactic AND strong enough; the strength needed to overpower the wing beating power that can keep the 39,000 tons Rodan aloft is INSANE, which shows when he can go blow for blow with Godzilla with his neck strikes.

Meanwhile, Showa Ghidorah only has feats against smaller and weaker kaiju, and no onscreen feats of him razing planets. Based on his verifiable feats, he simply lacks the power to do anything to Monsterverse Ghidorah beyond prolong the fight. He can't inflict enough damage to get past the durability or regeneration, nor can he truly outsmart his Legendary counterpart.

Monsterverse Ghidorah is a prideful and stubborn creature, but he's not stupid. He uses great tactics, such as the aforementioned immobilization of Rodan, and has gotten the upperhand on Godzilla multiple times, such as by aiming for his neck and going for an aerial slam to get past his reach.

First of all, the Rodan move is impressive, yes, but that's still melee combat and not all that smart. Pinning isn't something that's unique to smart creatures. Why I believe Ghidorah isn't all that intelligent is that he had multiple chances to kill Godzilla, such as when he lifted him up and dropped him, but didn't take them. He also didn't use anything close to the impressive tactics Showa Ghidorah used, such as using his flight to his advantage in his fights against terrestrial creatures. So if they fight, Showa wouldn't let it be a melee fight, it would be an aerial, ranged fight. Not only this, but in All Out Attack it took a whole SEVEN Kaiju to beat him. He only got beat when he was knocked to the ground by Gorosaurus and ganged up on. He pummeled some of the Kaiju pretty well, such as Anguirus, in that fight. Monsterverse Ghidorah, on the other hand, would have been almost easily defeated if Rodan hadn't interfered when Mothra came in. He was losing fairly badly at that point. 

Also, he doesn't need to do TOO much damage, he just needs to do enough damage to kill each head, which could mean just hitting them in the face at full strength from above. Monsterverse Ghidorah has never regenerated mid-fight, so saying that would help isn't really good. Showa Ghidorah just needs to surprise attack Monsterverse Ghidorah using the cover of Ghidorah's storm from above a few times. Then he just needs to focus his gravity beams on one head and destroy it, or spread them all out at once and impale each head, killing him. 

Also, saying Monsterverse Ghidorah can just absorb Showa Ghidorah's attacks is like saying he can absorb Godzilla's atomic breath, since he also absorbed his radiation. But he can't absorb his atomic breath. 

Also, strength of an atomic breath is not equal to range, it can be shorter and stronger, or longer and weaker like Showa Godzilla. 

And you say all that ignoring that Monsterverse Ghidorah was FLYING while fighting Rodan. He prefers to fight in melee because he's immensely strong and aggressive. He certainly has the onscreen speed to catch up to Showa Ghidorah, and he can use his Gravity Beams if need be, as shown when he was chasing down Emma Russel.

His beams are MUCH stronger than Showa Ghidorah's, being able to visibly push around the massive Monsterverse Godzilla.

As for his "stupidity", there's a difference. I highlighted his pride. He's Godzilla's rival, and he also enjoys inflicting pain. Not like Showa Ghidorah is some master of combat. He's had his faults, like standing there while Rodan flies Godzilla in for a kick and whatnot.

The difference in intelligence really can't make up for the raw power difference. As seen with his wings, Monsterverse Ghidorah also has combat-effective regeneration. If Showa Ghidorah can't even damage the skin of Showa Godzilla, he isn't gonna be able to do ANYTHING to Monsterverse Ghidorah.

Firstly, I'm not ignoring that he was flying with Rodan, and I do acknowledge that takes incredible power, but I still don't think that shows intelligence. 

Second of all... those are all really good points... besides the pride one. There isn't really evidence in the Monsterverse movie that Ghidorah is "prideful" and not just stupid, like constantly fighting with it's own heads. 

As for the standing while getting kicked, yeah. I have to admit, that was kind of stupid. But here's the thing: Showa Ghidorah has at least ACTUALLY shown intelligence when fighting, or at least shown an effective tactic with range. 

As for the skin thing... you never see in any of the Showa or Heisei series movies bleeding caused by a beam attack... not even from Godzilla himself! Heck, even in the Monsterverse Ghidorah's gravity beams haven't been shown to pierce Godzilla's skin, rather than push him back. Also, Ghidorah's heads are most likely a weak point, seeing as how Godzilla ripped one of within about twenty seconds in the water scene, so Ghidorah's gravity beams just have to be as strong as Godzilla's neck muscles... or even weaker, since they just need to cut through instead of rip off. 

Due to Ghidorah's storm, he'd be practically aiming in the dark if Showa Ghidorah uses his usual hit and run tactics. It's hard to catch up to a creature that hits from above and is in the dark.

Also, that's assuming that Showa Ghidorah isn't as fast as a car... which I'm almost entirely sure he is when he's flying. So that speed thing is kinda iffy.

And lastly, the wing regeneration. I don't exactly remember him regenerating his wings mid fight, as far as I can remember. Can you tell me when please? Because when it happens is really important.

After Monsterverse Ghidorah absorbs Boston's power grid and unleashes lightning from his wings, we see that there are large scorch lines from where he released the electrical energy. These heal up pretty quickly. Look up the scene in question; you'll see that the scorch marks heal up.

As for pride, do recall that Ghidorah only called on Rodan when Mothra entered the fray. He was perfectly content to continue taking on Godzilla on his own and likely would've continued to do so if she didn't intervene.

Anyways, you seem to be conflating "stupidity" with simple animalistic intent. Ghidorah isn't stupid. His tactics against Rodan and Godzilla prove as much. He doesn't capitalize on opportunities to finish off opponents because he revels in the moment and is more of a predator that goes in close for the kill. Against different styles of opponents, he employs different tactics and has acute battlefield awareness, specifically due to the pragmatic right head.

Do note that Showa Godzilla was bleeding and left damaged by Mechagodzilla's attacks, whereas Showa Ghidorah was only just managing to hurt Showa Godzilla. The tensile strength of Monsterverse Ghidorah's necks are immense, as seen when he lifts Monsterverse Godzilla up by the neck and shoulder and still retains a relatively upright posture and only a slight drag on his necks.

They also have the same super strong golden scales of the rest of his body, which was shown to resist the Atomic Breath with ease. Monsterverse Godzilla himself is also extremely strong, shown to be capable of throwing Monsterverse Ghidorah away and push him around with ease; combined with his biting and the living storm's general panic in the water, it's NOT a feat against him to have had one of his heads ripped off. So, even focused Gravity Beams (which they likely won't be given the Showa Ghidorah's puppeteering throwing them around in all directions) likely wouldn't take off a head with any kind of ease. In an aerial dogfight, there's just no way Showa Ghidorah can avoid knife-fight range with his larger counterpart.

As for your proposition of Showa Ghidorah using the storm for cover, do remember that it's not his natural element. He's not used to flying in a hurricane, whereas Monsterverse Ghidorah is. His smaller size and unfamiliarity are a DISADVANTAGE, not to mention he simply doesn't have the raw wing power of Monsterverse Ghidorah. He's more likely to get lost in the hurricane and jumped by his Legendary counterpart than to be able to get the jump on the larger 3-headed dragon.

Again, the intelligence difference is honestly not that large to begin with, with some scenarios favouring Legendary's take in that department, but the POWER difference is simply too much. The amount of effort Showa Ghidorah would need to expend is simply not enough to make a meaningful difference.

Legendary Ghidorah outclasses Showa is almost all aspects.

Ok, we can't use anything after he absorbs energy from the Boston power grid, because that give a significant boost in power. Also, even if we were to use that, he was given a short break by Godzilla starting to feel like there was too much power from the nuke, so it doesn't count as mid combat. 

Also, we never see Ghidorah CALL Rodan to fight Mothra. He just pops in, and seeing how they were in D.C. earlier, I think Ghidorah called for him before the battle, and Rodan just got there a little after Mothra showed up. 

Also "animalistic intent" is not to make something suffer, animalistic intent is to kill something efficiently, if you make them suffer they could get away or fight back. That's why Ghidorah was being stupid, if it's a creature that can kill you, then there's a good chance it will wake up and try to fight you again. It's like a bear attacking a sleeping black mamba, it would be absolute stupidity. Also, even if that isn't stupid, his pride could very easily work against him, especially against what doesn't seem like a threat. 

Ghidorah's beams don't have to cut the heads off, they just need to impale the brains, which if they're focused on one spot, they could probably do. 

As for the Mechagodzilla one, that's more of a man made missile attack, and has different properties to a Kaiju attack, so I'm betting the bleeding was because of the different kind of attacks.

As far as the hurricane goes, he can fight on different planets and can somehow fly in space, I think being on planet earth would be a disadvantage for either of them, especially since Monsterverse Ghidorah really shouldn't be used to the storm either, but they both somehow still manage. The point is, they adapt easily and quickly due to their experience in so many environments. Except water. Monsterverse Ghidorah can't really do anything in water, which is a place where Showa Ghidorah can work effectively in... somehow. I think it's because he's so adaptable to new environments, but Monsterverse Ghidorah clearly doesn't have the ability to that extent.

As for the way his neck moves, the puppeteering is irrelevant. There's no mention of Ghidorah ever being unable to keep his necks STILL, so I think he can. 

As far as the atomc breath, it's not really a cutting attack like Ghidorah's gravity beams, it's more of a burning attack. If it were like Shin Godzilla's atomic breath, which cuts through everything it touches instantly, this would be a different story. It seems to really just burn and push stuff back, and not really cutting through anything. Heck, it couldn't actually pierce the Mutos' hides either. It only cut the neck off after all the internal muscles were burnt to a crisp when he fired inside the female Mutos' mouth. So that isn't exactly a great tester of his scales' strength. Also, as you mentioned before, his own electricity caused scorch marks along his wings, so he seems to be vulnerable to attacks similar to his own, oddly enough. 

I'm honestly just not seeing where you're getting any of these "advantages" from Showa Ghidorah.

He hasn't been shown experience in any kind of hurricane environment (Monsterverse Ghidorah very obviously has since it's a specific interaction he has with Earth-like atmospheres), he hasn't shown the kind of tactical acumen to focus fire, and he hasn't shown any level of power that would allow him to accurately and effectively hit Monsterverse Ghidorah.

He doesn't have the aerial agility needed to contend in a proper dogfight, he doesn't have the flexibility or strength to contend in melee, and he doesn't even have the more complex strategizing of Monsterverse Ghidorah like mid-strike slams and absorbing energy through bites when in need of a boost.

Monsterverse Ghidorah's actual abilities weren't boosted once he released that energy; he wasn't physically stronger or anything, just like how Monsterverse Godzilla's physical traits weren't amplified by the nuke. His regeneration works as normal, and Godzilla's strength works like normal.

There is NO point where Showa Ghidorah can win this bar a miracle. He just doesn't have enough power, intelligence, and/or coordination to effectively combat the more agile and powerful Monsterverse version. Now, if this were the Heisei Ghidorah who has similar size and strength, we'd have something to discuss, but right now there's no good case to be made for Showa Ghidorah that pans out in a majority of scenarios.

You know, I'll take up a King Ghidorah fight.

Suggestions for a combatant?

Heisei King Ghidorah. Probably the most even matchup around.

Ok, first of all, if the energy didn't boost his power, then why was he able to

a. pick up Godzilla when he never showed a feat even close to that in strength before, or even try that before

and more importantly, B. do it in the first place? If it offered no actual advantage instead of just that light show, then why do  it in the first place?

As for the tropical storm, it probably doesn't affect flight all that much in the first place if so many jets can fly through it so easily. Even if it did, Ghidorah himself wouldn't have been able to fly through it by your logic because he wouldn't have been used to it when he arrived on Earth and probably wouldn't have been able to fly. It's why he can't even do anything in the water. He's not used to it. Showa Ghidorah, on the other hand, is known to be quite adaptable due to being able to move pretty well underwater, being able to fly through ease on Earth, Venus, and the Xiliens' home planet.

The coordination thing is kind of a weird point. I mean... there's no reason to believe he CAN'T hold his heads in a single position, it just seems like he's jittery and doesn't usually do that. There's no actual evidence that he can't focus his beams, and if he couldn't then it would be almost impossible to hit an opponent from the air, a feat we see time and time again. There's absolutely no reason to believe that his body won't allow him to hold his neck in some sort of position, like any other animal or creature in the Godzilla universe. 

Ok, energy stealing isn't a complex strategy, it's an ability that Showa Ghidorah almost definitely doesn't have. Also, that point is absolutely pointless, Ghidorah only did that when Godzilla was practically unconscious/was lying on the floor.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "mid strike slam", so could you clarify that? But, even then, that's MELEE, my point is that Showa wouldn't let it be a melee fight and make it more of a ranged fight, which is something he's been shown to do, instead of a melee fight. In a melee fight, no doubt Monsterverse would win. But with more tactics and range, Showa could probably take it. 

Note that Monsterverse Ghidorah stunned Godzilla with his wing lightning AND THEN went for a talon grab rather than a neck grab. He had distance, time, and motive to finish the fight this way. Earlier, he was in CQC, Godzilla was actively able to fight back, and he had to think quickly.

We see that Godzilla himself didn't have any different physical stats even after getting amped; it was his Atomic Breath that got charged up. With Monsterverse Ghidorah, seeing as how the energy of Boston pales in comparison to a nuke and that his standard  Gravity Beams afterwards were no different later on, it's logical to assume that ONLY his lightning was amped in that quick burst.

With the hurricane, Monsterverse Ghidorah naturally creates these storms and was actively using them to terraform the Earth to his liking. My argument wasn't that Showa Ghidorah just couldn't navigate. It's merely that they would give him some manner of trouble with the winds and lightning. He's not in his element in them (the argument for adaptability doesn't count without the actual feats to back them up), and he's at a disadvantage because he wouldn't know how to properly navigate it compared to Monsterverse Ghidorah who just naturally inhabits the storm. He's lived for millions of years and came to Earth a long time ago; it's safe to assume he knows how to use it.

With regards to coordination, it's not about Showa Ghidorah not being capable of it. It's that he just DOESN'T, even in the face of overwhelming odds. It's his behavioural quirk, much like how Monsterverse Ghidorah likes to savour the moment and kill his opponents with a degree of pleasure. It's "stupidity" on his part as you put it in your argument, but you still justify it. The quirks of Monsterverse Ghidorah are just more easily remedied through his intelligence.

Showa Ghidorah doesn't show enough onscreen flight speed to truly evade Monsterverse Ghidorah, not enough behavioural coordination to attempt to focus down his beams, not enough power to do any damage that can't be regenerated from, and not enough intelligence to actually attempt a proper ranged game.

He might TRY to make it a ranged game, but he's lacking in the power department, Monsterverse Ghidorah has better ranged power due to his stronger Gravity Beams, and the larger dragon has a penchant for chasing down and engaging in melee anyways.

There is, quite literally, NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER that Showa Ghidorah possesses. Not in intelligence, not in strength, not in speed and agility, not in durability, not in tactics. He's just an inferior overall fighter.

Trust me, I've done my fair share of VS. Debates in my days. I know how this song and dance goes.

Well, Monsterverse Ghidorah couldn't even keep up with Emma Russel's car, he had to gravity beam it to get the ORCA. Showa Ghidorah is definitely known to be faster than a car.

Yeah, Boston doesn't have as much energy, but the thing you're not thinking about is energy consumption efficiency. Ghidorah probably uses energy more efficiently than Godzilla, or else Godzilla would have had atomic breath feats much more impressive than the electricity coming from Ghidorah's wings. Also, electricity and energy are probably his primary food sources, and he could very well metabolize food very differently to us due to being an alien. How much he eats could affect his physical strength. Also, we do see radiation affect Godzilla's physical strength, because when he absorbed Mothra's radiation he went fire, and then Ghidorah's gravity beams couldn't even push him back or make him flinch. So his regeneration and his ability to pick up Godzilla could very well have been affected. Also, the electricity isn't what made Godzilla not fight back, it was because he was tired/was about to go thermonuclear and was leaning on a building and panting. 

Actively using the storms is a bit of a stretch, it's more of a passive ability that follows him. Also, no, no he would not be used to it, because that storm doesn't follow him into outer space or anything, it just came as a result of him coming to Earth. And there are feats to back up Showa's adaptability, such as him being able to actually fly as soon as he reaches Earth, the Xilien planet, and Venus, despite them all containing different atmospheric compositions, temperature, gravity, etc. On Earth, he could move fairly easily in the water, despite never being in a liquid with the same buoyancy, composition, etc. Ghidorah can't even swim very well, let alone actually adapt quickly to such elements. I don't think a storm (not the same as a hurricane) that posed no problems for Rodan, the Monarch ship, and any of the jets flying around in the Ghidorah fight in D.C. AND Boston, then it shouldn't be much of a problem for Showa Ghidorah either. 

Also, no, we never see him chase down and engage in melee. Whatever he fought always came to fight him in melee too. Except for Emma Russel, who was in a car... and he couldn't catch up... and he had to gravity beam her. He's not that good at chasing. 

Monsterverse Ghidorah's "quirk" is quite different from Showa's. Showa's was not incredibly important to tactics, so he never bothered to keep them straight. Monsterverse Ghidorah, however, completely missed out, numerous times, a battle tactic that could have won him his fight against Godzilla. Not something that's even too hard too come up with, just what an average spammer in a multiplayer game does. But, as I said before, if Showa Ghidorah wanted to do it, he could, or else he would almost never hit his opponents. He just needs to aim for the heads. Most regular animals always go for the head or neck, or some vital area that will assure them the kill, so of course Showa Ghidorah would as well.

Also, just because you've done your fair share of V.S. debates, doesn't necessarily mean you're right. That's like saying because one person has done more debates than some other person, even though the other person knows much more about the subject, the guy who did more debates wins because they did more debates, even if they were wrong every time. Not saying that's even close to the case here, but just saying that it's not a point in the slightest. 

TheLazyFish actually Godzilla can absorb each other's atomic breath because they are bio atomic Ghidorah is not bio atomic so he can not absorb Godzillas atomic breath but he can vampirize his energy just like keizer Ghidorah did to final war Godzilla and like death Ghidorah did to mothra leo in rebirth of mothra and monsterverse Ghidorahs gravity beams could blast straight through several buildings in Boston almost like shin Godzillas atomic breath showa Ghidorahs gravity beams just blew little chunks off of buildings. Plus it was implied that showa Ghidorah was a pawn buy alien invaders then when his mind control was severed he would still attack but he would be disoriented and when he wasn't he acted more on brawn than brain monsterverse Ghidorah appears to take the place of the alien invader who orchestrates attacks destroy all monsters style with lesser kaiju almost exterminating humanity if not for Madison using the orca to make him think he was being challenged by a rival until Godzilla arrived to challenge him yet again.

And I am more confident that monsterverse Ghidorah would use his own storms for surprise/stealth attacks kind of like how toothless hid in the clouds to repeatedly ambush the red death because he did fight in the sky when he was faced with aerial rivals specifically rodan and if you notice before he tried to drain Godzillas energy he flicked his tongues at him meaning he sensed something about Godzilla implying he could detect the energy building up inside of him and he was trying to drain it so Godzilla wouldn't have the strength to keep fighting or recover.

Again, you're reading the wrong kind of context.

Without any actual feats that point to Showa G being able to effectively navigate a Category 6 hurricane (being "adaptable" does not count if said adaptability doesn't actually include a hurricane or storm), we can't say he'd simply adapt to it. We CAN say that he's adaptable to Earth-like atmospheres (going by the films' depictions being Earth-like), water, and space. That's it. That's what's confirmed.

I'm not saying he'd be thrown around or anything; just that it's NOT an advantage to him, because it's not an element he's known to be found. You also are literally lying about Monsterverse G not being used to it as it actively ignores the plot of him using the storms to terraform Earth and his simple age. It's more likely that him creating storms upon entering atmospheric conditions is an intentional biological trait the species uses to its advantage.

As for the flight speed argument, do bear in mind he was literally flying right above the ground AND wing-walking without proper lift; he was also just plain pissed off at the Alpha signal. In the air proper, he could match Rodan in an aerial collision course in speed and obviously moves with the storm at high speeds.

With regards to Showa G's Gravity Beam, do note he NEVER has demonstrated that he bothers to focus it down; it's not an observed behavioural trait, and indeed he displays the opposite with his wildly flailing heads. I'm not saying he CAN'T, just that it's not likely for him to do it simply due to the way he behaves on average. He hasn't displayed any intent or intelligence in doing this against ANY foes he's fought; not Godzilla, not Rodan, not Anguirus, not even Zone Fighter.

Going along with that, as demonstrated above, Monsterverse G went after Rodan once the latter had briefly retreated, and he obviously chased down Emma. He was also prepared to chase down Mark and the others when they were leaving Boston. He is more than used to chasing down his prey.

As for the absorption, due note that Godzilla had not displayed increased physical strength from his own absorption of the nuke. He still stalemates Monsterverse G in a collision, creating the shockwave like in Antarctica; it's bigger because the 2 Titans had greater distance and speed to build up momentum for the force of their collision. He even had a constantly glowing rack of backspines; Ghidorah didn't even retain his orange glow after absorbing Boston's power grid. Also note that Burning Godzilla is very specifically a state only attainable through Mothra; it's a unique symbiosis ability.

Overall, there's just a very poor argument to be made for Showa G's side. I've put up with a fair amount of BS from people who don't properly read context, narrative intent, and simple physics logic in debates. I've honed my craft in objective analysis, and it's just frustrating to deal with the likes of an argument like this where there's really only one clear answer.

Could Showa G win in maybe 1 specific circumstance? Yes, but even that's unlikely due to the overwhelming number of advantages that Monsterverse G has. He can't hit hard enough even with sustained ranged attacks to truly make a dent (sustained beam use can't even crack open Showa Godzilla's face), he can't keep up with the better agility of Monsterverse G who can simply swerve his necks out of the way, he can't intelligently plan out well enough to take advantage of his larger and superior counterpart's weak areas, and he just can't take any hits well enough from the overwhelming power of the Legendary Titan.

Sorry if I'm getting a bit flustered, but I hate arguments like these where it keeps going on and on and nobody wants to just give in. It feels like the answer should be obvious, and yet here we are still.

"Actively lying" tad harsh and untrue... JEEZ

" I've put up with a fair amount of BS from people who don't properly read context, narrative intent, and simple physics logic in debates. I've honed my craft in objective analysis, and it's just frustrating to deal with the likes of an argument like this where there's really only one clear answer." Once again, not a point.

"Sorry if I'm getting a bit flustered, but I hate arguments like these where it keeps going on and on and nobody wants to just give in." Yeah I agree, I'm just going to stop responding. At this point, we're kind of just restating the same points over and over again hoping the other person finally gets it.